Fishing deeper in warmer water

[Dusty Miller]

Convention tells us that when the water warms up we can drop down in fly size and fish higher in the water column (floater/intermediate depth). The reasoning is that with the warmer water the fish will move more readily to a fly that is further away from its lie.

But why make them move further when a sinking line might pass the fly directly in front of the lie?

You can understand why Collies/Sunrays (or any other fly) fished high and fast in the water column might trigger a predatory instinct that leads to a take but what about smaller flies fished deeper and faster?

Assuming a particular lie is, say, at 5' depth and holds fish in spring and summer then in the colder water of spring we would conventionally fish it "deep and slow" using a sinking line. When the water warms up should we not fish the same lie with the same sinking line?

[abk]

From my own experiences I have found that when the water warms up salmon will come to a fly fished higher in the water quite readily if they are well rested. On the other hand there are times even when the water has warmed up I have found that some fish are reluctant to come to a fly fished high in the water. One possible reason being the angle of light hitting the surface at the time. Another reason I think which causes this behaviour is when fish have run far and fast. I have come to think that some beats in the middle to upper beats of a river can sometimes be affected by this type of behaviour if the fish have come into to them straight up river from the tide. The fish being tired may well be the reason for them being reluctant to rise through several feet of water. These fish I have found though will quite often take a fly fished at nose level. Another time when the water is warm when a deeper fly can be better is when a pool is over populated with fish. Not enough lies for the number of fish present. Some salmon will refuse to vacate their lies to go and intercept a fly fished high above them. Perhaps they are avoiding getting their lies stolen by other fish. The same fish however often seem more willing to take a fly which can be taken by just opening their mouths where they lie.

[Deleted]

I think it also interesting that in the pre-Woods and Laming era when greasing the line was not as widely practiced, the majority of flies would have been fished that bit deeper than today - other things being equal. Also, did anglers not use Singles a bit more which can cut through the water if lightly dressed

I tend to now think that if using a small heavily weighted fly- e.g. a PBP or a Frances on a copper or tungsten tube - after early Spring and before late Autumn, the use of a floating/hover/sink tip etc line is not as critical as opposed to presenting the fly at the "correct" depth through its relatively heavy body weight that some smaller modern flies possess and as mentioned above.

Indeed, I am suprised that more people do not seem to get snagged with some of these flies more frequently

If this is not so the case, then I am quite happy to be enlightened on this matter

tweedbunnet

[Dusty Miller]

Jan 5, 2010 13:00:33 GMT @tweedbunnet said:

I tend to now think that if using a small heavily weighted fly- e.g. a PBP or a Frances on a copper or tungsten tube - after early Spring and before late Autumn, the use of a floating/hover/sink tip etc line is not as critical as opposed to presenting the fly at the "correct" depth through its relatively heavy body weight that some smaller modern flies possess and as mentioned above.

On the flipside of this I've heard some people are experimenting with floating tubes fished off sinking lines (some sort of ethafoam conehead?). Similar principle to a wooden devon fished off a paternoster rig I guess. You'd certainly get some nice buoyant movement into the fly.

[Dusty Miller]

Jan 4, 2010 21:40:31 GMT abk said:

I have come to think that some beats in the middle to upper beats of a river can sometimes be affected by this type of behaviour if the fish have come into to them straight up river from the tide. The fish being tired may well be the reason for them being reluctant to rise through several feet of water. These fish I have found though will quite often take a fly fished at nose level.

Do you put any belief into the theory that running fish will favour the upper layers of the water column where it may be warmer?

[abk]

Running fish do seem to prefer the top 2 ft of water when running fast upstream. Whether this is due to the temperature of the upper layer being warmer or not is open to speculation. Perhaps they prefer this running depth, because it is easier, by them not having to twist dodge and turn their way around bottom obstacles. The straightest course is always the shortest. Slow running fish just moving upstream through a pool or two however seem to prefer to easy their way just above the bottom of the riverbed. Even in the sea when they are migrating they also tend to stay relatively shallow. Not exactly sure of the exact distance they swim beneath the surface of salt water, but I think it is in the top 10ft. Perhaps some other members could clarify this.

[Deleted]

Jan 7, 2010 21:19:00 GMT Dusty Miller said:

Jan 5, 2010 13:00:33 GMT @tweedbunnet said:

I tend to now think that if using a small heavily weighted fly- e.g. a PBP or a Frances on a copper or tungsten tube - after early Spring and before late Autumn, the use of a floating/hover/sink tip etc line is not as critical as opposed to presenting the fly at the "correct" depth through its relatively heavy body weight that some smaller modern flies possess and as mentioned above.

On the flipside of this I've heard some people are experimenting with floating tubes fished off sinking lines (some sort of ethafoam conehead?). Similar principle to a wooden devon fished off a paternoster rig I guess. You'd certainly get some nice buoyant movement into the fly.

Absolutely the case. Just look at Templedogs. There is a big spilt of views/opinions as to how they can be fished - and using a floating/unweighted Templedog in conjunction with a fast or very fast sinking line is an option I have yet to finally determine for myself. I do like Coneheads also fo the benefits they provide.

There is an objection that a fast sinking line is more likely to "get drowned" if a fish runs a long way downstream and then turns back with it. However, in my experience, Spring fish caught in colder water do not tend to run as far as those hooked in warmer water so this line of thought may be a bit of a red herring.

tweedbunnet

[hagar]

Jan 9, 2010 10:02:16 GMT @tweedbunnet said:

so this line of thought may be a bit of a red herring.

It's not , and neither does the line have to be a sinker to get drowned.
Salmonnut will testify to this after watching me play one particular springer in fast water just above the Bridge a few years ago.
Horrible fight , wi' the line drowned on several occasions.

Floater wi' a 5' home made sinktip.

[hagar]

Jan 9, 2010 12:47:20 GMT @salmonnut said:

yip but i thought it was a great fight. ;D
Did i not net that fish for you?

Felt like I'd gone 10 rounds wi' Ali after that one.
I still get the shakes thinking about it.
The feeling of the line grinding round those boulders under the bridge was horrible.
Aye , you beat Miss Whiplash to the net that day ;D

[hagar]

LOL! ;D

[Deleted]

Hagar,

If that is the case I stand corrected.

However, I can only say that in my experience a fresh run springer can sometimes come to the bank like a bit of dishcloth.

I once had a major kerfuffle with a large Salmon (+20lbs) in early August one year which ran up and down the pool like a Torpedo on Speed (and in which I came off second best!)

The exceptions to the rule should, though, not form the sole basis of judging the method. It is simply something to be aware of as soon as battle commences.

tweedbunnet

[hagar]

Jan 9, 2010 16:07:33 GMT @tweedbunnet said:

The exceptions to the rule should, though, not form the sole basis of judging the method.

Any fish that makes a sudden , and large , change of direction can cause a drowned line.
I've had fish do it at close range and at distance , on floaters and sinkers , and I don't like it one little bit.
Length of rod can help with the closer fish , but I've never found anything that helps very much when they're further away.

" Hold on wi' both hands ! " ;D

[Deleted]

hagar

Yip, often you are at the mercy of the gods when fishing. Sometimes they smile down on you, sometimes they don't
All you can do sometimes is your catchphrase and
" Hold on wi' both hands ! "

tweedbunnet

[macd]

Jan 4, 2010 21:40:31 GMT abk said:

From my own experiences I have found that when the water warms up salmon will come to a fly fished higher in the water quite readily if they are well rested. On the other hand there are times even when the water has warmed up I have found that some fish are reluctant to come to a fly fished high in the water. One possible reason being the angle of light hitting the surface at the time. Another reason I think which causes this behaviour is when fish have run far and fast. I have come to think that some beats in the middle to upper beats of a river can sometimes be affected by this type of behaviour if the fish have come into to them straight up river from the tide. The fish being tired may well be the reason for them being reluctant to rise through several feet of water. These fish I have found though will quite often take a fly fished at nose level. Another time when the water is warm when a deeper fly can be better is when a pool is over populated with fish. Not enough lies for the number of fish present. Some salmon will refuse to vacate their lies to go and intercept a fly fished high above them. Perhaps they are avoiding getting their lies stolen by other fish. The same fish however often seem more willing to take a fly which can be taken by just opening their mouths where they lie.

some interesting points alex

I regularly fish deep in warm water- usually if its bright or for whatever reason they wont come up. I landed fish on separate occasions in bright sunshine last summer using a 10' fast tip.

I also think you are right about the fish seemingly reluctant to come off the lies. I fished the Cathedral on the Moy in 2008. The water was a lot higher than they usually had, which was reason enough for a sinker, but there was no way in hell that the fish were coming up- and the beat was stuffed with them.

Anyway, I used an inty with a fast tip and had the only 2 fish from the beat that day.
Im sure the result was a bit improved presentation ( the other rods were on floaters) and and a bit that the fish were not budging to the higher swimming fly.

My companions switched to the same set up and the following day shared 6 when everyone else (me included) blanked.



a very small plastic foxwing tube also helps.



anyone else have similar experiences

[faughanpurple]

By no means have i got bags of experience but this tactic paid dividends last year for me in July..

Great water height, lovely warm morning, perfect floating line size 10 or 12 fishing day.. the pool had a nice head of trout and grilse.. not a thing would move..

Slow sinker cast square left to sink and swing with a slow fig of 8 brought me plucks, pulls, then a nice White trout and Grilse in quick succession..

No one else had a pull.

Later in the day they swicthed on to the floating line fast fly for an hour and i turned a few and lost one but after that it was back to the deep and slow to get a pull.